bit of ranting...

[Trovarion]

I shouldn't stay up that long, unfortunately this is the time my brain works best...maybe i should try some C2H5OH...anyway...

I've always thought of the mini-painting "community" as being different from most of the other "internet based" comunities, but I was utterly wrong.

coming straight to the points:

- As we see it now - let's face it - we have one big group that has the most talented, both technique-/inovation- and imaginationwise, due to some intense dedication that most of us will never want to put up anyway, and they let everyone feel it, should they ever chose to hop over the language barrier... "what you think you are good? your lightsource is wrong, the skin is too flat, why do you even paint...". if this is the price of being the top 0,01% of this hobby then no, thanks...

- on a more general view there is several groups that have a pathological feel to me, like e.g. the photoshopers, a group of people that I only lately realised within the last months.
they correct highlights because they couldnt get them smoother with the brush so that they achieve a higher rating in some internet platform in order to tell the fanboys in the local GW store that they are ranked 50 - or what do I know - but would never touch a paintbrush in front of others because it would show there's something foul going on.

- also there's the people that overestimate themselfs so much they can't cope with a single "hmmm...you could have done one more highlight there" and take it as a personal attack...browse the CMON forums nowadays and you get what I mean...

- a more general observation i made as well is that so many people hate each other because of the painting. this ranges from small 1:1 skirmish to 1:10 masacres and big epic battles, fought via PM, mail, internal forums - even in reality. It really sickens me...

I am into this hobby because it's a way of living my creativity, not because I want to impress others, not because I want to earn money, not because I think I am the bestest painter wo gibt...
Also I don't think of painting as a science, where's the fun in that and the results are really really more pleasing when I do some real life affecting science at university and I really couldnt care less if someone who I think is worse than myself anyway is using my techniques...

SO FED UP ABOUT PAINTING right now; I never really thought about quiting it or at least about quitting doing it in "public" but the thought is closer than ever... (no...won't)

oh and someone just nailed it down: "These discussions are fascinating to a layman. I had not realised how strange you arty types really are. You are almost as strange as normal people."

[mahon]

Interesting post, Trov. I wonder if people will join this thread or not...

I shouldn't stay up that long, unfortunately this is the time my brain works best...maybe i should try some C2H5OH...anyway...

I've always thought of the mini-painting "community" as being different from most of the other "internet based" comunities, but I was utterly wrong.

I never thought of it this way. Other than that, you may be right. Are painters different f rom other people? I don't think so... What's even worse - some of them (us?) perceive themselves as some kind of artists, which really boosts their egos, and make them too egocentric.
OTOH I always thought the painting community is one for the most helpful and friendly ones, but...

yep, there are some "Buts":
1. CMON - as soon as it became more and more popular, some people started cheating (snipers, people giving heaps of 10s, etc.). also the friendly atmosphere it had is somehow gone... I remember the long hours spent on chatting in the shoutbox there - the people there used to be wonderful. Was it 2-3 years ago? There weren't so many great painters as now, but the atmosphere was much better.
2. CMON again - many people use it mostly as an advertisement platform. It makes them cheat on their scores (and sometimes even the other painters' scores but in the *other* direction) to boost their prices and sales.
3. Competitions? Dunno... Maybe the chance of (not) winning makes people envious, jealous, aggressive...
4. Popularity - as painting became more and more popular, it drew more and more variuous (often immature) people tro the communities...

and so on...

coming straight to the points:

- As we see it now - let's face it - we have one big group that has the most talented, both technique-/inovation- and imaginationwise, due to some intense dedication that most of us will never want to put up anyway, and they let everyone feel it, should they ever chose to hop over the language barrier... "what you think you are good? your lightsource is wrong, the skin is too flat, why do you even paint...". if this is the price of being the top 0,01% of this hobby then no, thanks...

you know, I never noticed that. Or maybe I did?
What I noticed is that many people whose works I admire never respond to PMs, emails, never comment, never give hints...
What makes me mad is the fact that some painters use their own languages (usually Spanish or French - which is even worse as I generally don't understand much then ) even in communities where English is the official language. Ditto for CMON - I used to love reading comments left for others, but now that I don't understand 50-60% of it (I know, not knowing languages is my problem) it is less and less fun.
People, don't be so proud and xenophobic. Sometimes even several words in crappy English can give someone the feeling you care, you are not some esoteric beings but cool and real people. Or you aren't?

- on a more general view there is several groups that have a pathological feel to me, like e.g. the photoshopers, a group of people that I only lately realised within the last months.
they correct highlights because they couldnt get them smoother with the brush so that they achieve a higher rating in some internet platform in order to tell the fanboys in the local GW store that they are ranked 50 - or what do I know - but would never touch a paintbrush in front of others because it would show there's something foul going on.

Well, let's be honest - many of us would be able to do it. Buty why should we? Will an undeserved compliment make you feel better? Or is it so important to be high in rankings even if you don't deserve it?
I think it's the side-effect of all the rankings and such stuff. Whenever there is something like that, there will be people who want to compete with others. This encourages some to use unfair methods to win - just like in sports... That's why I am definitly against any such rankings. Not because my position dropped, but because I think it spoils the atmosphere.

also there's the people that overestimate themselfs so much they can't cope with a single "hmmm...you could have done one more highlight there" and take it as a personal attack...browse the CMON forums nowadays and you get what I mean...

OK, that's something I know. Some people can't take criticism. You are right, Trov...

- a more general observation i made as well is that so many people hate each other because of the painting. this ranges from small 1:1 skirmish to 1:10 masacres and big epic battles, fought via PM, mail, internal forums - even in reality. It really sickens me...

I remember times where people used to write "I hate you because you paint so good" as a joke. Maybe the newcomers to the community didn't understand it? I think it's a matter of maturity...

I am into this hobby because it's a way of living my creativity, not because I want to impress others, not because I want to earn money, not because I think I am the bestest painter wo gibt...

even if you are not the bestest painter there is, you are the bestest painter wo gibt - since now

Also I don't think of painting as a science, where's the fun in that and the results are really really more pleasing when I do some real life affecting science at university and I really couldnt care less if someone who I think is worse than myself anyway is using my techniques...

I think that's why some of us are here - we like to share our intrests, comment, discuss... Well, not only boast how cool we are (or at least these of us who think they are cool )

SO FED UP ABOUT PAINTING right now; I never really thought about quiting it or at least about quitting doing it in "public" but the thought is closer than ever... (no...won't)

hah, don't.
now that i finished my first mini after many months? you won't do it to me

oh and someone just nailed it down: "These discussions are fascinating to a layman. I had not realised how strange you arty types really are. You are almost as strange as normal people."

the problem is some of us ARE arty types, some of us would love to be arty types, some of us think of themselves as arty types.... which isn't too good for normal human relations...

[Skrit]

Whoa Trov! Surely you don't include these forums in what you mean right? I think we haven't had a single flame around since the start and if it would happen I think the members themselves will sort it out...

But on to your post:

I think you are right! My brains do tend to work better at night!:P

Somehow I believe that this 'rant' is associated with the Natali topic on Cmon. If you don't know it, go check it out! There are things in there that go way too far but then again the person who started the thread ( ) had it coming!

Me? I don't consider myself an A grade painter, nor will I ever be! Sure, I hope to get better and I do consider myself as somebody who knows what he's talking about, but certainly no expert. I do try to give my honest opinions and tips where I can...

I only have one dream when it comes to miniature painting and that is to one day win one of those lovely Demon statues. Otherwise I'm quite contend with the way things are right now.

This forum gives me the chance to improve and learn, and the way it goes here makes me happy. Almost always when you ask a question here it will be answered . No matter who asks, or what it is. That and the fact that you can always find somebody to chat with, mini related or not!

The 'Pro's': Definitly getting you there! I used to ask some good painters around for tips every now and then and most of them never respond. That can be due to two or three things:
1. they simply don't have the time or are flooded by such mails.
2. they ARE egocentrical, singleminded and .... persons.
3. they don't have the knowledge to explain what they do. (ex: language barrier)

But there are some very good painters out there that are very kind and do take the time to respond to questions asked! Examples of this are in my case: Jakob Nielsen, Tammy Haye and some others...

Dunno about photoshopping, I couldn't even do it if I wanted to! My miniatures are pure you know!

Last but not least! I also noticed that some of the all so friendly communities I've been on in the past have changed. One Dutch forum used to be very nice but had an enormous rise in numbers which were mostly 'kids'. The examples which you give (when you post something and the only thing they do is: nah, not like it!) began happening there also and other childish behaviour made me quit (sort of) that forum.

Well, maybe I may have deviated a bit from your original rant but I must say this works very stress releaving! I'm sure I forgot some things but when they come up I'll post them...

Edit: I know what I forgot! Don't stop painting!

[fatgoblin]

dunno about photoshoppers! haha I keep telling people I think the pictures I post online look better than the real thing! I don't edit them but I think the lighting makes them look better....

anyway, for me, I matured a lot as a painter in the last few years thanks to the encouragement in forums, at that time it was the headblast and Jenova's forum. I am very thankful for the help other people have given me and I try to return the favour when real life passes me some free time.

And plus I enjoy the interaction with people that share my interest, which is painting. thats it really.

[ToMaZ]

- As we see it now - let's face it - we have one big group that has the most talented, both technique-/inovation- and imaginationwise, due to some intense dedication that most of us will never want to put up anyway, and they let everyone feel it, should they ever chose to hop over the language barrier... "what you think you are good? your lightsource is wrong, the skin is too flat, why do you even paint...". if this is the price of being the top 0,01% of this hobby then no, thanks...

I agree. I think it's great those people put so much dedication into the hobby. But they also think they're the kings and queens of the hobby. They only seem to care for other painters on their level, and then act like they've been best friends for ever. That's the feeling I get with them anyway.
There are some of those very good painters that are nice guys,and reply to PM's and questions. Skrit has pointed some out allready.

I have an opinion and I've given this some serious thought and at this point I don't really give a damn if someone finds himself offended by what I'm going to say. I don't need anybody to agree with me either. Anyway, I think the painters community has been strongly influenced by a group of frenchmen (incl frenchtalking belgians). Truth be said, they have some of the best painters amongst them. But I can't see the reason why they have to act like they have a stick up their arses. They give other painters the feeling they don't belong in the hobby or that they are waisting their time trying to get better by not replying to questions, or by the comments they rarely give in english. NOT if you happen to speak a some french, then they'd be happy to give you every piece of advice advailable.
I'm lucky that I got a decent education and understand enough french to understand what hints they are giving eachother, but a lot of info is lost for those who don't understand the language.
Offcourse, what I just said doesn't apply to every frenchmen, just a general group of good painters who think they should have their feet washed and kissed by the lesser creatures in the painting world.

- on a more general view there is several groups that have a pathological feel to me, like e.g. the photoshopers, a group of people that I only lately realised within the last months.
they correct highlights because they couldnt get them smoother with the brush so that they achieve a higher rating in some internet platform in order to tell the fanboys in the local GW store that they are ranked 50 - or what do I know - but would never touch a paintbrush in front of others because it would show there's something foul going on.

hmmm I know that some people do that (sometimes it's really obvious) and I think it's just lame. I have photoshop skills because I get some education in it, but I never got tempted to correct highlights and such with it. It just wouldn't feel good if I got a 8/10 and it should have been a 6.
I think people shouldn't care about a rating, there are allways factors that can influence it and that have nothing to do with painting.

- also there's the people that overestimate themselfs so much they can't cope with a single "hmmm...you could have done one more highlight there" and take it as a personal attack...browse the CMON forums nowadays and you get what I mean...

agreed, and I think if they can't cope with criticism they shouldn't post mini's online. It's wasted time. If you can't take critisicm go stand in front of a mirror saying "you're the best painter in the world" and then replying "I know, but thanks anyway". It saves a lot of people from useless bickering.

I am into this hobby because it's a way of living my creativity, not because I want to impress others, not because I want to earn money, not because I think I am the bestest painter wo gibt...
Also I don't think of painting as a science, where's the fun in that and the results are really really more pleasing when I do some real life affecting science at university and I really couldnt care less if someone who I think is worse than myself anyway is using my techniques...

A lot of us are in the hobby just for the fun. The thing is, that this groupd gets overshadowed (is that a word?) by the negative images that we get from other groups. On this forum I get the feeling that everyone's here for the fun. We talk, we laugh, we help eachother, we don't flame, we are just having fun with our hobby. (gotta love CofC )

I paint for myself. I personnaly don't care if I impress others or not. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to that dutch forum that Skrit mentioned (I was a member there too) and just post my mini and let it be admired. Even if it's drybrushed.
I want to improve and see if I can get something nice out of my brush. I want to learn new techniques. That's why I allways seek the forum with better painters than me. I only paint seriously for 2 years now, and I can say that I've learned a lot in that time.

some of us think of themselves as arty types....

You are pointing at me, aren't you Mahon???

Well I don't know if all what I said makes sense, I had a very rough night, and I lost the point here and there, causing me to delete stuff, staring at my screen wondering what I was talking about again

I need caffeine and bandages for my fingers now...

[Mordred]

Trov,

I had the same feelings yesterday, and I'm quite sure that your reaction comes from reading the insanely childish Coolmini Topic about one of Alexi_Z's figures. I was so compelled by it that I read all 8 pages before going to bed
However I think these guys are exceptions. We talked at the German GD about the egos of some painters and how they put themselves apart from other hobbyists just because their technique is better, but there are also those guys who leave comments on Cmon, who really do their best to help other people improve, even if they have to explain stuff to new guys in the hobby. I myself have learned tons of stuff from sending one or two PM's to painters like Jacob Nielsen, Ritual, You yourself, Arjay, Jarett Lee, too many to sum up here, and they have all helped me a great bit.

I think your problem lies more with the guys that visit the CMON forums rather than with the general painting community. People like alexi_z who react childish to criticism, or people like Klute who are just plain jealous of others and really try their best to comment on every single little detail. the silly childish discussion that went from name calling to very rude behaviour is just an exeception in my opinion. you shouldn't let your motivation to paint depend on what other people do with their free time on the forums.

[NAVARRO]

Well i lived all my life surrounded by "artists" and when your blessed with talent you have 3 typical behaviours from them towards your talent.

1- surprised, happy to see your work and entusiasts of learning and sharing.

2- silent, reserved, jeaulous and hate you more than anything.

3- cynical just wanting to make profict from stealing your stuff or wanting you on theirs uber flashy master talented stars of end of times elite.

this is what happens on art enviroments in Portugal.

personaly i watch my back with group 2, dance with group 3 untill they are so dizzy they fall off from the throne of perfection or get pinned by all like a imature theef and finally give all i have to group 1.


Now lets travel to miniature painting..... HECK thats fun time.... art? dunno but its fun! and simply that. H O B B Y! and freaks me out those that take this sooooo seriously that forget whats miniature painting is all about.

They even fall on the same typicall last behaviours i named before...worse we get some wannabes that behave worse than painters. also net enviroment flames behaviours and people tend to exagerate.

At the end of the day its up to you to select the communitys you are in and have a really good time with them, just dont let anyone interfer with your own personal hobby.

Some strange elites dont let you in? who cares were they are. You are your own elite, its your hobby, your painting your quality fun time.
after a while wen you look around you will notice it all just felt so damned good and how those so called elites are gone just because imploded.

Have fun is part, if not the aim ,of painting miniatures.

Flamed competitions? rankings? photoshop? intolerant to advices? elitism?
grey people that belong to the ashes of the never happy and get a life limbo.

CofC its a gem and the most precious one i ever saw. full of colors in every good way.


PS- trov giving up? i wont let you go to bed you tyranid slicer!!