I'm not saying Cyril isn't ok...sometimes he just joins in on the stampede (like this last tut, that had a bit of a bad aftertaste because it only seemed to be there to prove whatever about scibor than to help others)...the I just think oh boy...live and let live...and yeah I always enjoy his tutorials and step by step stuff, giving so much to the comunity. Can't say anything else about him since unfortunately I never met him...
I wrote about the stuff that happened to me about a million times and sorry but I dont want to warm it up again. It happened back in August, after the german GD and it seemed like I enraged half of france, unleashing a wave of coments, PMs and Mails that made me think... "do they not have anything better to do? hmmmmm...." And yeah among them were some top painters. And no I didnt keep the conversations, mails etc. from back then. I doubt anyone does keep mail from 5 months back...
about scibor
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Slawek
I agree nothing to add here. Except that on the beggining people do not have full information abot product. People do not know that ornaments were stamped. For some it didnt make difference, for some maybe did...Gottkaiser wrote:This whole thing gets a very interesting direction.
Wismer Hill says, that the prices are too high, as you can get the same stuff from GW. Well, I don't think so and I can't imagein Scibor forcing people to buy his stuff..
Now things are clear and nobody should make any bad comments about high prices of Scibor works.
Mold lines are not most important here. The most important thing is Are stamped massproduced parts from greenstuff uniqual?Gottkaiser wrote: Hm, Cyrils Comment is a different one. Imvao, it shows mainly his dislike for Scibors work. He says that the completion is bad, which I can't support. Yes, there's a mold line on the hammer which shouldn't be. But the GS Stuff parts are great, the pose and all that fits together.
It all comes down to his dislike for the molds imvao. And that just isn't okay.
IMHO no more than plastic GW bitz.
I see more creavity in recent sculpted Dwarf made by Scibor without fancy ornaments, patterns etc
Conclusion from me:
Prawdziwa cnota krytyk się nie boi
Can somebody translate that for non polish speakers? My language skills are not so great...
EDIT: True virtue isn't afraid of criticism (?)
EDIT
Slawek, please don't quote so unnecessarily big parts of messages and post one message under another, OK?
I will edit it this time, but please, save the mods work
Mahoń
Slawek,
Creative doesn't mean unique.
I don't know if you don't considerrenaissance woodcuts art. Or Picasso's graphics..
They weren't one of a kind because once they had the matrix ready, they used it to create several prints.
This doesn't make these things worthless. They are art, but the process of creation was happening a moment earlier - while the original was created. And it didn't matter what tools were used. Scibor uses what he finds the best for the task, and so should every artist. Only a fool would paint iwth a stick if he had a brush.
Nobody claims the prints are unique. It is the minis which are one-off creations. He uses parts he himself created, he doesn't claim they're unique one-of-the-kind parts. He also doesn't claim to be sculpting the minis frokm scratch. He uses parts which he buys, which he creates, and some parts he sculpts.
He would be lying by saying these are not prints, but AFAIK he doesn't do it. So what the heck? And well, his answer wasn't polite, wasn't kind, wasn't what I expected from him. But sometimes one little thing can be the one step too far, too much for you to bear.
Sure, true virtue doesn't fear to be criticized, but we're only humans and when too many people seem to be agains you, your nerves can break. If you haven't experienced it - you're a lucky guy.
Creative doesn't mean unique.
I don't know if you don't considerrenaissance woodcuts art. Or Picasso's graphics..
They weren't one of a kind because once they had the matrix ready, they used it to create several prints.
This doesn't make these things worthless. They are art, but the process of creation was happening a moment earlier - while the original was created. And it didn't matter what tools were used. Scibor uses what he finds the best for the task, and so should every artist. Only a fool would paint iwth a stick if he had a brush.
Nobody claims the prints are unique. It is the minis which are one-off creations. He uses parts he himself created, he doesn't claim they're unique one-of-the-kind parts. He also doesn't claim to be sculpting the minis frokm scratch. He uses parts which he buys, which he creates, and some parts he sculpts.
He would be lying by saying these are not prints, but AFAIK he doesn't do it. So what the heck? And well, his answer wasn't polite, wasn't kind, wasn't what I expected from him. But sometimes one little thing can be the one step too far, too much for you to bear.
Sure, true virtue doesn't fear to be criticized, but we're only humans and when too many people seem to be agains you, your nerves can break. If you haven't experienced it - you're a lucky guy.
-- Mahoń
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
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Orb
Well I'm jealous of Scibor because he's got 3DMax, can use it, has access to a 3D milling machine! It takes a variety of skills to use the software, and also the designs he produces need to be sympathetic to the GW imagery too. He's a talented guy!
What I don't like, personally, are some of the additionally sculpted parts on the figures in question; we've seen what Scibor can sculpt and know that he CAN sculpt, so it's a little dissappointing to me that he appears to shortcut some bits. As to not cleaning mould lines, well that re-inforces what these pieces are; Reasonably quickly produced conversions to sell. And they do. For good money. If someone wishes to buy them, that's fine. Which is great!!! Someone making some money from their hobby!
When I first saw his work I was amazed at the finese of the filigree sculpting - thinking it must have taken ages! I think it's good to know how it's done.
To me, I had some sympathy in Cyril's comments because it became frustration seeing such praising comments on the sculpting, when the depth of the filligree in the mould is precisely controlled by computer, not by the hand of the artist. But some comments went too far and the witch-hunt a little extreme. However,I take my hat off to Cyril because of the tutorials he has produced for the community - and his homemade simple press mould tutorial is a cracker!
Petty arguments are common in all walks of life. In the historical miniature world, there are regular arguments and fights due to the accuracy vs artistic debate - some will spit on anything that may be inaccurate - they don't make many models!
Rob
What I don't like, personally, are some of the additionally sculpted parts on the figures in question; we've seen what Scibor can sculpt and know that he CAN sculpt, so it's a little dissappointing to me that he appears to shortcut some bits. As to not cleaning mould lines, well that re-inforces what these pieces are; Reasonably quickly produced conversions to sell. And they do. For good money. If someone wishes to buy them, that's fine. Which is great!!! Someone making some money from their hobby!
When I first saw his work I was amazed at the finese of the filigree sculpting - thinking it must have taken ages! I think it's good to know how it's done.
To me, I had some sympathy in Cyril's comments because it became frustration seeing such praising comments on the sculpting, when the depth of the filligree in the mould is precisely controlled by computer, not by the hand of the artist. But some comments went too far and the witch-hunt a little extreme. However,I take my hat off to Cyril because of the tutorials he has produced for the community - and his homemade simple press mould tutorial is a cracker!
Petty arguments are common in all walks of life. In the historical miniature world, there are regular arguments and fights due to the accuracy vs artistic debate - some will spit on anything that may be inaccurate - they don't make many models!
Rob
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Mordred
I didn't want to dig up any old discussions here, I just couldn't log in to the site for ages and so couldn't reply to this post ^^
Trov : while I was browsing scibors gallery on coolmini I also took a look at the comments you received after german gd. I found it quite shocking to read so many bad reactions abuot your space marine, especially because we spent the games day together and you told me how Kaple was a big inspiration for your miniature painting, it's not like you tried to claim unique creativity or something. but it's funny to notice that those reactions came from the same people that posted negative comments about scibor. Coincidence? hm
Also, it seems logical to me that painters inspire eachother. Isn't that why it's called the painting community and all?
Trov : while I was browsing scibors gallery on coolmini I also took a look at the comments you received after german gd. I found it quite shocking to read so many bad reactions abuot your space marine, especially because we spent the games day together and you told me how Kaple was a big inspiration for your miniature painting, it's not like you tried to claim unique creativity or something. but it's funny to notice that those reactions came from the same people that posted negative comments about scibor. Coincidence? hm
Also, it seems logical to me that painters inspire eachother. Isn't that why it's called the painting community and all?
I thought that it was ended but so...
Slawek --> If You make that quotation from my answer for Cyril You should know that it was not my first convestion with Him
Hi started coments some times earlier. I tried by polite ant tried turn this accusatory tone of Cyrils to joke.
hire is our first conversation:
https://www.coolminiornot.com/104316
I did not know who is Cyril earlier and when I saw that Hi is top mini painter I wrote private masage to him and explain my intentions.
I am not going to put hire quotation becouse it is private corespondence and it will be not fair. I write only that i got hot masage with very inpolite answer. Cyril in His private masage ofend me, my works and my clients . He wrote something like there are lot of people who have bad tast and too much money to spend in the hoby, and that He is going to send more "friendly" masages in my gallery at cmon. I need add that masage was long and Hi has chance to expressed all his opinion about me, my intentions my level of knowlage and gave me few "advices" .
After this answer I feel free to to give Him more inpolite retort.
I think that I answer for Your questions about my intentions.
Cyril do not attack me in present month I hope that there is no sens to
continue discusion about war betwen me and Cyril. I think that I do not need like Him as person and I admire his miniatures. He should tolerate
my vision of my hobby and busines .
There is only one painfull experience from this "war".
I start my miniatures hobby as try for escape from advertising busines which generate lot of stress and is very hypocritical. I thought that I may change my profesion from "art director" in agency for "miniatures sculptor" in my own company and I will forget about stress and hypocrisy.
I was wrong it is not depend of profesion.
greetings
Scibor
Slawek --> If You make that quotation from my answer for Cyril You should know that it was not my first convestion with Him
Hi started coments some times earlier. I tried by polite ant tried turn this accusatory tone of Cyrils to joke.
hire is our first conversation:
https://www.coolminiornot.com/104316
I did not know who is Cyril earlier and when I saw that Hi is top mini painter I wrote private masage to him and explain my intentions.
I am not going to put hire quotation becouse it is private corespondence and it will be not fair. I write only that i got hot masage with very inpolite answer. Cyril in His private masage ofend me, my works and my clients . He wrote something like there are lot of people who have bad tast and too much money to spend in the hoby, and that He is going to send more "friendly" masages in my gallery at cmon. I need add that masage was long and Hi has chance to expressed all his opinion about me, my intentions my level of knowlage and gave me few "advices" .
After this answer I feel free to to give Him more inpolite retort.
I think that I answer for Your questions about my intentions.
Cyril do not attack me in present month I hope that there is no sens to
continue discusion about war betwen me and Cyril. I think that I do not need like Him as person and I admire his miniatures. He should tolerate
my vision of my hobby and busines .
There is only one painfull experience from this "war".
I start my miniatures hobby as try for escape from advertising busines which generate lot of stress and is very hypocritical. I thought that I may change my profesion from "art director" in agency for "miniatures sculptor" in my own company and I will forget about stress and hypocrisy.
I was wrong it is not depend of profesion.
greetings
Scibor
I don`t want to enter this discussion, which from my point of view is without any sense...
But it is sad for me, that except Cyril, even our own compatriot - Hashmallum (now from Leprechaun Studio) is saying such infantile things. Just pity...
It`s becoming more and more like our goverment
If tommorow somebody will discover, that Michelangelo was using strange paper templates in his painting, then suddenly he won`t be great artist any longer? Funny...
The effect is what really counts, not what tools do you use...
Maybe end this topic at last?
But it is sad for me, that except Cyril, even our own compatriot - Hashmallum (now from Leprechaun Studio) is saying such infantile things. Just pity...
It`s becoming more and more like our goverment
If tommorow somebody will discover, that Michelangelo was using strange paper templates in his painting, then suddenly he won`t be great artist any longer? Funny...
The effect is what really counts, not what tools do you use...
Maybe end this topic at last?
Szary
if there's at least one impolite or offensive post - this thread will be locked for sure. it is a dangerous one, but we're still believing in maturity of people here.
EDIT (my own):
I've just read Scibor's message, which somehow escaped my attention. Several remarks:
- If his works look unfinished for you, that's something you can point to.
- If you don't like the moldlines - you can evwen alugh at them. If Scibor doesn't like to care about such things, it's his choice, but he has to face the criticism.
- You can't call his minis boring if you don't call regular SM boring
They are much more intertesting than the originals, and what he does is expanding the range of parts he has at his disposal. GW and many other companies produce new variants of theri minis with pre-made parts.
- He is able to do wqhat people want to buy. He should be respected for it, not despised. Is it his problem his minis are trendy? Is converting with parts made by himself anything worse than converting with ready parts from GW? Definitely not. So what is wrong with his conversions?
- Yep, he sometimes sounds arrogant. Sometimes it's obvious it's the language barrier, sometimes just being unable to keep his nerves under control while being 'witchhunted' as somebody called it... I don't like arrogance, and prefer normal discussion. That would be a better way to go...
And if something more comes to my mind, I won't hesitate to post it
PS - And Scibor is probably unhappy about all this atmosphere around him, but happy about the atmosphere of 'scandal' around his minis. He's only getting better known, and recognized.
PPS - You wanted fun and no stress by selling minis? Whereever money steps in, there is stress, uneasy competition, jealousy, trying to bring people down. I found it out several years ago, and many people are finding it out now...
EDIT (my own):
I've just read Scibor's message, which somehow escaped my attention. Several remarks:
- If his works look unfinished for you, that's something you can point to.
- If you don't like the moldlines - you can evwen alugh at them. If Scibor doesn't like to care about such things, it's his choice, but he has to face the criticism.
- You can't call his minis boring if you don't call regular SM boring
They are much more intertesting than the originals, and what he does is expanding the range of parts he has at his disposal. GW and many other companies produce new variants of theri minis with pre-made parts.- He is able to do wqhat people want to buy. He should be respected for it, not despised. Is it his problem his minis are trendy? Is converting with parts made by himself anything worse than converting with ready parts from GW? Definitely not. So what is wrong with his conversions?
- Yep, he sometimes sounds arrogant. Sometimes it's obvious it's the language barrier, sometimes just being unable to keep his nerves under control while being 'witchhunted' as somebody called it... I don't like arrogance, and prefer normal discussion. That would be a better way to go...
And if something more comes to my mind, I won't hesitate to post it
PS - And Scibor is probably unhappy about all this atmosphere around him, but happy about the atmosphere of 'scandal' around his minis. He's only getting better known, and recognized.
PPS - You wanted fun and no stress by selling minis? Whereever money steps in, there is stress, uneasy competition, jealousy, trying to bring people down. I found it out several years ago, and many people are finding it out now...
-- Mahoń
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
-
Slawek
I love you all... And agree with most of thing you said. I will even agree wth that lazy guy Mahon
I hope that bad thing beetween Scibor and Cyril will end. From my perspective this conflict bring something good.
1. Make a Scibor more active member of our community...
2. Bring us excellent tutorial from Cyril
3. I thinke more recent minis from Scibor have better quality
4. At last I have seen some painted mini from Scibor
5. I have occasion to read some interesting things on Creafigs forum (thx for link with translation - it works sometimes)
6. I like good discussion and you can found that here...
So Big thank you from me for Cyril and Scibor. Keep the good work! That was inspiring...
I hope that bad thing beetween Scibor and Cyril will end. From my perspective this conflict bring something good.
1. Make a Scibor more active member of our community...
2. Bring us excellent tutorial from Cyril
3. I thinke more recent minis from Scibor have better quality
4. At last I have seen some painted mini from Scibor
5. I have occasion to read some interesting things on Creafigs forum (thx for link with translation - it works sometimes)
6. I like good discussion and you can found that here...
So Big thank you from me for Cyril and Scibor. Keep the good work! That was inspiring...
This lazy guy is trying to make this website fully operational for Ferbruary, maaan!Slawek wrote: I will even agree wth that lazy guy Mahon
Slawek wrote:From my perspective this conflict bring something good.
really interesting and refreshing opinion. good one, Slawek!
-- Mahoń
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector