[mahon]

Mate, I dont think its a matter of Trov having a diferent opinion than most... I think the issue here is more Trov giving all hes got and expressing his honest opinion about something...

and I think it's about the way it was done.
you are all encouraged to comment, to like or dislike, to express your opinions and it's best if these opinions are honest.
but you know there are different ways of expressing yourself. if you don't like a meal because it's too salty you can say you prefer other food and this one is too salty for you, or you can say "yuck" or even spit on it. see the difference?

If Trov disliked the diorama, it would be great to say why - too busy? too boring? low painting quality? not his taste?
But he only made a comment which could easily be found sarcastic or offensive. Not the best to do it, right?

You know that regarding such subjective stuff like painting or modelling there's no one right opinon - it is all in the eye of beholder. You can and are encouraged to discuss, but discussion requires arguments. Not just saying 'meh'.

To be totally honest... the pic of the drop pod diorama didnt impress me either... yet and from my experience here i knew my frontality about it wouldnt be apreciated so i just concentrated on praising things i actually liked the most... See what I mean? One step back.
The problem with this is that after several steps back your not engaged with anyone and you will probably migrate.

You told you didn't like the diorama on the photos. My answer can easily be that's fine because photos are all you can see. Many people saw it in person and most were truly impressed and it was a popular candidate for the sword. The amount of detailing on the diorama, little touches, it was excellent. The diorama was a story, one of being stranded only with a drop pod and a dog. There were really nice touches which made it alive - tools scattered around, bone in a barrel which was the dog's house, laudry hanging on a rope... It doesn't show on the photos. You cannot tell - I agree.
Even if you could - you still don't have to like this one the most. That's fine, but you should be able to explain your opinion. Especially if you disagree with the popular point of view.

And I think that's where we reach the clue of what you said that it's best to step back - when you agree with the crowd you don't have to have arguments for your opinion. You just say "I agree". No problem - everybody does, and they probably have their arguments, so you don't have to express yours. But if you disagree you are expected to tell us why, and you have to be prepared for a discussion - and if the discussion is heated, this means people are really involved in the subject.

So if there's a new release and most people say "I like it", that's the easy way. One can say what he doesn't like, but if he doesn't explain it (is it because of the concept, the proportions, quality of casting, etc.) he can't expect them to agree. He can either be ignored or get into discussion.

Trov didn't add anything constructive, and then started making silly comments. Not helpful at all.
See the difference? I do...

My personal point of view - honest opinions were always priced here. Noone discouraged nobody from presenting own stance, even if it was completely different from majority.

I would agree. But one should behave, be polite. There were many heated discussions (remember those which were about copying GW stuff or Scibor's computer generated patterns?) but as long as people treat others with respect, don't offend each other, and remain constructive and add something useful to the thread - that was always fine. Even if their opinions were not popular. Well, that's a known fact that it's more challenging to go against the crowd than to go with them...

That was just my point of view. I understand and accept that yours is different. If we made Trov or you feel this way - I'm sorry for that. At the same moment I have to say I don't feel guilty (nor anyone else should).

I agree again. I expressed my opinion and tried to provide explanation for it. You can agree or not.
It was not our goal to offend Trov or make him go. And the same goes to you.
If anyone felt offended - I apologize. Just wanted to make my point of view clear.

I and Trov have known each other for a few years now. I believe this incident doesn't end it. Maybe not here, maybe somewhere else, but I hope it was not the last time we talked to each other.

[NAVARRO]

Like I said earlier I dont find unpolite someone posting just a comment without backing it up with argumentation. Its the same if someone posts "I like" or "I dont like".

To me Trov comment meant " I dont like the dio" nothing more nothing less... I dont find unpolitness here... No need for the ussual back and forth.

THe N?1 CoC rule comment was right on target because you dont see any agravation here resulting from "I like" comments ( wich are the majority of posts)...

There are lots of tabus here and take it from someone who doesnt have any kind of agenda or interests... Dont confuse honest opinions with rudeness or unpolitness.

I also would like to add the following, I'm not Trov and my opinions are based on what i seen here happening over and over again... with that said, Maybe trov opinions concerning this are diferent from my intrepertations.

Rusto mate, nothing against you, and you didnt started nothing... I think you just had the immense bad luck of catching this problem in the end

The others that expressed that have their conscience clean and its a Trov Issue... well mates it takes 2 to dance.

Also I doubt from what I have knowned Trov over the years that hes "offended" I bet he" like myself sometimes here" is tired of the smilie faces when theres no reason to smile.

[mahon]

THe N?1 CoC rule comment was right on target because you dont see any agravation here resulting from "I like" comments ( wich are the majority of posts)...

There are lots of tabus here and take it from someone who doesnt have any kind of agenda or interests... Dont confuse honest opinions with rudeness or unpolitness.

Well, I still think - and most seem to agree: if you criticize, that's fine! that's welcome and encouraged! just explain why...

I don't think there should be any aggravation from "I like" comments. It's easier to hurt someone when you dislike results of their effort than when you like them. If you like it, why should you add anything?
But when you don't like something, you can explain why, and this way help the person improve and make your criticism count. Make it useful, and thus easier to accept.

I can hardly think of any tabus, except for subjects commonly considered 'slippery' on most forums - politics, racism, religion, and such.
Are there any other subjects we don't want to discuss?

And believe me, man - I was always so happy to have people who are able to provide constuctive criticism here! Nameless can do it, you can do it, Slawol can do it - the criticism can be hard to swallow sometimes, when you're proud of what you've done, but constructive remarks help you improve. Just my opinion...

I always respected Trov's opinions, when he was in the mood to tell something more than just tease and fool around. I am really sorry to see him go, believe me...

[NAVARRO]

I would like to avoid going deep on naming the tabus here, lets just say that I do have to pay real attention to who I play with... to who I express my opinions without holding back or even to who I reply at all

I think you replied part of your question also when you say

"the criticism can be hard to swallow sometimes, when you're proud of what you've done, but constructive remarks help you improve."

To me being proud of something doesnt make it hard to swallow critics... and its this feeling of "someone being unconfortable with my honest opinions" that I avoid... see what I mean?
I rarely post my opinions concerning something without holding back... the few times I posted was when I was directly asked to ( in your nurgle posts and not much more).

Trov to me gave allways his honest opinions without holding back and thats a rarity of a quality I do apreciate and search.

[mahon]

Well, there are different kinds of people - some appreciate honesty, some prefer to hear just the soft version.
I think we have it in the rules: say what kind of comments you expect.

As far as I remember some people asked for gentle criticism, as they were afraid of being discouraged. Some wanted honest opinions as they want to improve.

Thanks for being honest. It's a rare virtue!

[arctica]

I know i haven't been here for that long but i do troll the forums quite a bit and personally i enjoy the honest criticism. Like Nav said it does give the painter an area to seek improvement. Also for the bystander like myself it gives me some insight into how to improve too. I understand your arguement of being polite too, Mahon. I've always thought Trov gave some insightful comments but obviously i don't read everything on the forum (i'd be 90 when i finished reading the whole forum from scratch lol) its a shame that he feels this way. I think he could have easily phrased things in a much more pleasant way but like many have said, that's how he is and anything different wouldn't be him. But you could also argue the point that dealing in a case like this could have been much more diplomatic, especially if you know how the person is.

Example: the other day i commented on someone's work not giving much constructive comment, more criticism as it turned out (not deliberately i might add). He replied on the post in a manner which was aggressive and i felt i offended him. So i privately messaged the guy to apologise and i amended my comment with something he may have found more useful. He replied in a pm a much more friendly way and it was very helpful for us both to sort it out this way.

Im not biting at anyone in particular, im just saying like Nav did that these things are 2 way like any relationship/friendship etc. Just have to find the middle ground to deal with things. Sorry if i am intruding in this matter but its just as a neutral party's view point here.

[illusionrip]

just my opinion
why doing such affair for this...he wants to leave, ok it's his choice !!
he wants to rest, good, he's a really good painter !!

some wants to hear thruth...great they will improve and rethink their way of painting
some don't wants to and want only hear they are great......ok with this, they won't progress and its their choices

my conclusion: everybody do what he wants to do, and everybody should care about himself and not about the others

ps: i'm thinking about leaving CofC because nameless told me that violet for sword didn't suit to nurgle....bloody nameless.....such a beautiful sword

[NAVARRO]

Thanks for your post artica, not because you agree in some of my points but because your neutral position on this Is much more accurate than the people involved.

illusionrip your conclusion is perfect in a world were people dont interact with each other... live their lifes do their things and dont care. Its all good... but for that you dont need to be in a public forum... In fact its the oposite of being in a public forum.

No ones doing a drama about Trov leaving... personally Im just saying that things dont work out for a long time and this is just the end of it... and for me its always a sad day when someone I invested so much time sharing and talking to, decides do leave...

And since its not a happy day i dont find any bit amusing your P.S.

In fact proves a bit of what I'm talking to.. If people dont give a rats ass and even here goof about what made trov leave and about the "problems"
I was trying to identify... then why should I?

[mahon]

Arctica - you don't intrude. Just tell us your opinion and I appreciate it.
Just like Navarro's opinion. Expressed clearly - I know what he means, and even if I don't agree to every point of his post, I respect his opinion. And I think that's not a bad approach to discussing. Not always it's possible to reach agreement, but we can disagree politely.

And you're right, Navarro, it's a sad moment. Illusionrip's PS is just an exaggerated version of what's obvious: when one doesn't like something, there's nothing to keep them from leaving. I just regret it came to this with Trovarion. In my opinion his behavior was provocative, but you don't have to agree here. You know that there's language gap, culture differences, and other factors why we can have different views on some issues. No problem here for me.

Trov used to be my friend, and his leaving doesn't have to change it. He just chose to leave, which makes me sad.
It's always easiest to blame it on just one person, isn't it?

Why should you care, Navarro? And why shouldn't you? Wouldn't you prefer to have a nice place to spend some time here or not have it?
In my book you're a friend of mine, and I would prefer to have people like you here rather than not have them.

And there's a story. A real one:
There used to be a person I knew from the internet and the person irritated me very much. Then we met in person and after the meeting all the strange quirks became easier to accept and tolerate. What I mean is that not knowing each other in person doesn't help us in understanding each other's behavior. Maybe I didn't find Illusionrip's post offensive because I know him in person and can easily imagine the real Illusionrip saying this instead of just faceless post in the internet?

And Arctica - don't hesitate to step in and share your opinons. It's difficult to become a member of a community without getting involved once or twice.

[NAVARRO]

Mind I dint find Illusionrip post offensive... It was just a little allegory of the nature of the comments Trovs been sujected to for so long and I watched.

Also I think you have a clear proof of caring about this place from trov... even if he endured for so many time the goofing and atacking he never changed... at least untill he was completly fed up...
Same goes for me, I wouldnt spend the energies on this post if i didnt care... but on these things the majority wins... and theres little you alone can do about it.

Thats how I see things.

Its good you know some people in person and give them some slack but then again you should give some slack to those you dont know so well... specially after your little example of the irritating net persona.

Like artica said probably things would work out better if all didnt jump on trovs throat... and instead tried to know whats going on... but yet again on last moment its easier to slap Trov than to review the majority behaviours... specially if you dont see nothing wrong with them.

Also I wonder what happened to the core group of persons who talked so much with trov for so many years?... They decided a vote of silence now? thats a great way to support your called "friends" even if you disagree.
Disapointing really.

I know its easier to put head on the ground and let it pass, but like all in my life i dont let loose ends unfinished, behind.

And to be totally honest ATM i feel myself closer to trov stance than yours... thats why my posts for a month now decreased and I feel rather disapointed.

But I can be looking at this in a wrong prespective since I dont know anyone ( except beauty ladyeyes) in person.