I wont comment on the minis for now.
But I would like to say, that the tip about painting in monochrome was about the best single tip, i've ever read regarding our hobby.
I read Maru's tip the other day, while browsing this thread, and I thought I would give it a go, and I must admit it really opened my eyes on so many levels. You dont have to worry about colors, but can focus only on intensity and contrast, light direction and smoothness etc.
My next mini is also going to be black & white, its such a good learning process.
i want to become a better painter
Forum rules
Post pictures and discussions regarding works in progress here, please. If you have photos of these works when they're completed, feel free to post them to the right section and feel free to add the link in your post about the work in progress.
Post pictures and discussions regarding works in progress here, please. If you have photos of these works when they're completed, feel free to post them to the right section and feel free to add the link in your post about the work in progress.
Re: i want to become a better painter
Dont ask 
show the minis
so you will receive even more tips
show the minis so you will receive even more tips
Last edited by Hellspawn on 14 Apr 2012, o 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed typo for better understanding :-)
Reason: Fixed typo for better understanding :-)
Re: i want to become a better painter
when you will be ready with your black & white example - you can always come back to Calgar!
miniatures painted:
2011 - 83, 2012 - 38, 2013 - 45, 2014 - 56, 2015 - 95, 2016 - 106, 2017 - 22
2011 - 83, 2012 - 38, 2013 - 45, 2014 - 56, 2015 - 95, 2016 - 106, 2017 - 22
-
Nameless
- The Better Choice
- Posts: 17415
- Joined: 21 Jun 2005, o 17:41
- Location: Silesia, Poland
- Contact:
Re: i want to become a better painter
highlights on the armour are good, but I'd deepen the shadows a bit. or more than a bit.
darklining is your friend, so use it everywhere, not just in selected places
and base is way too simple! the addition of a dark wash would be the minimum you should do, not to mention cleaning sides of the bases. then light drybrush to pick up texture, followed with some static grass or foliage and you'll quickly get simple base,which will not make viewers think "man, do something with the base"
btw, try to post some close-ups next time, this pic was tad too small
darklining is your friend, so use it everywhere, not just in selected places
and base is way too simple! the addition of a dark wash would be the minimum you should do, not to mention cleaning sides of the bases. then light drybrush to pick up texture, followed with some static grass or foliage and you'll quickly get simple base,which will not make viewers think "man, do something with the base"
btw, try to post some close-ups next time, this pic was tad too small
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Muskie
Re: i want to become a better painter
Well since my account is working I should quickly post something. I'm starting to see some backlash online against people who spend a lot of time painting their army well, which is sad. The school of thought of base, wash, drybrush and done seems to be spending an awful lot of money on models and paints, without bothering to try improve their painting.
I'm totally self taught from long before the era of YouTube tutorials and online painting forums. I have collected a lot of painting advice. But some of the best advice I read online has nothing to do with color theory, or step by step guides, or wonder washes. It was something referred to as triangle theory. Basically the human eye naturally looks at certain points on humanoid models, they are the face and the two hands. Miniature sculptors often exaggerate this further by making these slightly out of proportion or putting an over-sized weapon in the hands of a model. Following this triangle theory you should put the most effort into these three areas.
I've spent a lot of time highlighting and blending and black lining and whatever parts of models that most people never seen. Every now and then I'll actually play a game with a real person and they'll pick up one of my models and point out something I painted on the bottom or the back and I'll be like "oh yeah, I did do that..." Now a days I try to paint more efficiently rather than better. I never entered any of the serious painting competitions though I did try harder to do well in the old GW Grand Tournaments. Following this triangle theory you can cut a lot of corners painting the back of a model or its elbows or whatever, most people won't notice as long as you do a good job on the faces and the hands and the weapons.
The area just under the face or just behind the face, the chest and backpack of a space marine is of some importance too, as are the knee caps and tips of the toes. Now a days I look to see how many areas I can get away with minimal highlights and still get a good overall effect.
Color theory will interact with the triangle theory because choosing contrasting colors for the face/helmet and the weapon will help them stand out. Then once the eye is drawn there people will see you spent extra time on those parts of the model and appreciate it. It isn't an accident that most source lighting effects are usually the model's eyes or the weapon. The human eye is drawn there naturally and emphasizing those three small parts of the model will improve the overall model even if you don't actually paint the back of the kneecap very well or at all...
Better include a picture
Champion of Khorne with Power Weapon by Muskie McKay, on Flickr
I tend to use my latest paint jobs rather than go the greatest hits route. I painted this Bezerker about a year ago. It was one of the last models I painted before I put my paints in storage. When I decided to finally paint some Bezerkers from my Chaos army, I decided to go with a split scheme, but an even better decision was to choose models and to paint their helmets as skulls. The exact skull/bone recipe doesn't matter, the lighter colored helmet stands out and everyone always comments on what a good idea it was. This is the champ so he has a power weapon (Axe of Khorne). I always dream up custom colors for these, sometimes I have more or less success, this time it was a dark green with some light grey blended in. His off hand is some sort of mutation bit which is a really simple recipe to paint. I've found over the years that pale blue/grey skin works really well with Chaos Space Marines.
The rest of the model has all sorts of different colors and techniques. Not necessarily the fanciest ones, but where the eye is drawn is the skull/face and the ends of the two arms.
Hope this helps.
I'm totally self taught from long before the era of YouTube tutorials and online painting forums. I have collected a lot of painting advice. But some of the best advice I read online has nothing to do with color theory, or step by step guides, or wonder washes. It was something referred to as triangle theory. Basically the human eye naturally looks at certain points on humanoid models, they are the face and the two hands. Miniature sculptors often exaggerate this further by making these slightly out of proportion or putting an over-sized weapon in the hands of a model. Following this triangle theory you should put the most effort into these three areas.
I've spent a lot of time highlighting and blending and black lining and whatever parts of models that most people never seen. Every now and then I'll actually play a game with a real person and they'll pick up one of my models and point out something I painted on the bottom or the back and I'll be like "oh yeah, I did do that..." Now a days I try to paint more efficiently rather than better. I never entered any of the serious painting competitions though I did try harder to do well in the old GW Grand Tournaments. Following this triangle theory you can cut a lot of corners painting the back of a model or its elbows or whatever, most people won't notice as long as you do a good job on the faces and the hands and the weapons.
The area just under the face or just behind the face, the chest and backpack of a space marine is of some importance too, as are the knee caps and tips of the toes. Now a days I look to see how many areas I can get away with minimal highlights and still get a good overall effect.
Color theory will interact with the triangle theory because choosing contrasting colors for the face/helmet and the weapon will help them stand out. Then once the eye is drawn there people will see you spent extra time on those parts of the model and appreciate it. It isn't an accident that most source lighting effects are usually the model's eyes or the weapon. The human eye is drawn there naturally and emphasizing those three small parts of the model will improve the overall model even if you don't actually paint the back of the kneecap very well or at all...
Better include a picture
Champion of Khorne with Power Weapon by Muskie McKay, on Flickr
I tend to use my latest paint jobs rather than go the greatest hits route. I painted this Bezerker about a year ago. It was one of the last models I painted before I put my paints in storage. When I decided to finally paint some Bezerkers from my Chaos army, I decided to go with a split scheme, but an even better decision was to choose models and to paint their helmets as skulls. The exact skull/bone recipe doesn't matter, the lighter colored helmet stands out and everyone always comments on what a good idea it was. This is the champ so he has a power weapon (Axe of Khorne). I always dream up custom colors for these, sometimes I have more or less success, this time it was a dark green with some light grey blended in. His off hand is some sort of mutation bit which is a really simple recipe to paint. I've found over the years that pale blue/grey skin works really well with Chaos Space Marines.
The rest of the model has all sorts of different colors and techniques. Not necessarily the fanciest ones, but where the eye is drawn is the skull/face and the ends of the two arms.
Hope this helps.
Re: i want to become a better painter
hi Muskie,
you are right. you managed to nail something many of us followed on intuition... more or less...
you are right - face is the most obvious focus. that's why the viewers can become confused if face is not attracting the most attention immediately. their attention and sight begin to wander and the painter loses control over the direction they will follow.
I used to recommend to decide on one focal point (face is the most obvious element, but it can be a large banner, a huge glowng weapon, etc) and then guide the viewer's sight to the next focal point, and then to the next one...
this is a lot of work for a gaming model, but with a competition piece you can pull it off.
paint more efficiently, not better - oh, gotta love the phrase. that's about the phase I am in - if I want to paint at all I must be painting more efficiently. nevermind the minor (or some major) mistakes and errors - the overall effect is more important.
and you say there's a lot of bad energy going at people who care to paint their armies well? that's sad. I haven't had much in common with the painting armies, so I must have missed it. care to elaborate a bit more on the subject? I am really curious.
glad to see you here
you are right. you managed to nail something many of us followed on intuition... more or less...
you are right - face is the most obvious focus. that's why the viewers can become confused if face is not attracting the most attention immediately. their attention and sight begin to wander and the painter loses control over the direction they will follow.
I used to recommend to decide on one focal point (face is the most obvious element, but it can be a large banner, a huge glowng weapon, etc) and then guide the viewer's sight to the next focal point, and then to the next one...
this is a lot of work for a gaming model, but with a competition piece you can pull it off.
paint more efficiently, not better - oh, gotta love the phrase. that's about the phase I am in - if I want to paint at all I must be painting more efficiently. nevermind the minor (or some major) mistakes and errors - the overall effect is more important.
and you say there's a lot of bad energy going at people who care to paint their armies well? that's sad. I haven't had much in common with the painting armies, so I must have missed it. care to elaborate a bit more on the subject? I am really curious.
glad to see you here
-- Mahoń
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
-
Muskie
Re: i want to become a better painter
It is nice to blame the Americans for everything, but this sentiment isn't exclusive to them, nor is it exclusive to GW circles you also see it sometimes in historicals or whatever, some people feel any effort spent painting beyond the bare minimum necessary to play in a store, convention, or tournament is a waste of time. Furthermore folks who spend excessive amounts of time painting their models or trying to improve their painting are going to far or making them look/feel bad. They can get really defensive even hostile when you suggest ways they can improve their models/painting. Some folks of course don't want to paint their models, nor be told they have to paint their models in order to play in a store, convention, or tournament.
Games Workshop stores in Canada supposedly no longer require fully painted models in order to take part in in-store games. Some local gaming stores such as the one I went to in Vancouver are more old school and in order to play in-store you need to paint your models/army. Local tournaments in Vancouver seem to encourage painting but will tolerate the odd unfinished model. GW recently canceled the so called 'Ard Boyz tournaments which were win at all cost events often populated by abusive armies, annoying unfun people to play against, and of course unpainted or minimally painted miniatures. When these events got canceled some people said "good riddance" others did a lot of whining. Most of the independent events like Adepticon celebrate painting and require/strongly encourage fully painted armies and even award prizes for painting so people who enjoy 'the hobby' have a venue to gather at still in the US, but those who just wanted to win prizes by any means necessary and could care less about highlights or shading or freehand lost their preferred venue to prove how 'bad ass' they are.
As I stated somewhere else at the time, unpainted or poorly painted armies, that win GW events don't sell as many models as something like "Armies on Parade" or GW's old Grand Tournaments. Games Workshop is not going to feature on their website or in their monthly catalogue (White Dwarf) poorly painted models. GW is all about selling more models, not even over the longterm, but as a publicly traded company they think quarter to quarter ie short term profits.
GW's much hyped new paint line, is designed to help get armies painted quickly, but it is also designed to encourage you to buy new and more GW paints and to not buy "blood red" or "goblin green" from some other vendor. They took down all their old painting tutorials and invalidated a whole bunch more that were typed up by fans and posted online. Now if I wanted to tell someone how to paint a Khorne bezerker, I have no idea what GW colors to tell someone to use. I have yet to try the new GW paints and I use whatever paints work best or look the most like how I envisioned the model should look. I now try to paint more efficiently, not necessarily better. If that means with Reaper Master Series Clotted Red rather than having to mix up some custom red suing GW's paints, I'm going to use Reaper Master Series Clotted Red. That was one of the key colors in my red armor I believe. I also used the Foundry Black Triad as the beginnings of my black highlights which seemed to annoy every single person I told as those paints are hard to find in Canada, they seemed to want some sort of secret wash recipe, not be told that I used 3 or 5 different greys carefully layered to achieve the final effect.
The other reason the new paints have upset some veteran players is they already have 1000s of points of whatever army painted. They have a recipe or color list they use to paint their new additions, now they have to learn some new colors, maybe new techniques, and may have to blend or something to match their previous squad/army members. I've been painting a long time, so I've gone through this before, (GW changing their paint line) plus I mainly paint Nurgle so if my greens don't perfectly match c'est la vie.
It all comes back to why you paint. If you paint only because you are forced to by a store or tournament organizer, you look at it differently than if you paint because you want your models to actually look good or to try and improve your personal skill level. There are a lot of resources online but some folks in the hobby are just lazy, they can't even be bothered to Google or search old threads and repeatedly ask the same questions or even worse they say something like "That's not how you paint Ultramarines" or "you shouldn't paint your models so bright" or whatever.
I've just gotten tired of a lot of the BS you see online in this hobby and elsewhere in life. I've gone out of my way to help a lot of people so when people go out of their way to give me grief, or personally attack me. I just can't have those people and that crap in my life anymore. It is bad for my health. I have to either move on or tell them just how little I think of them or both.
So yeah wanting to improve your painting or skill at anything should be the norm, but some people seem to enjoy ridiculing other people online who think differently from them, even in a hobby that involves painting toy soldiers.
Games Workshop stores in Canada supposedly no longer require fully painted models in order to take part in in-store games. Some local gaming stores such as the one I went to in Vancouver are more old school and in order to play in-store you need to paint your models/army. Local tournaments in Vancouver seem to encourage painting but will tolerate the odd unfinished model. GW recently canceled the so called 'Ard Boyz tournaments which were win at all cost events often populated by abusive armies, annoying unfun people to play against, and of course unpainted or minimally painted miniatures. When these events got canceled some people said "good riddance" others did a lot of whining. Most of the independent events like Adepticon celebrate painting and require/strongly encourage fully painted armies and even award prizes for painting so people who enjoy 'the hobby' have a venue to gather at still in the US, but those who just wanted to win prizes by any means necessary and could care less about highlights or shading or freehand lost their preferred venue to prove how 'bad ass' they are.
As I stated somewhere else at the time, unpainted or poorly painted armies, that win GW events don't sell as many models as something like "Armies on Parade" or GW's old Grand Tournaments. Games Workshop is not going to feature on their website or in their monthly catalogue (White Dwarf) poorly painted models. GW is all about selling more models, not even over the longterm, but as a publicly traded company they think quarter to quarter ie short term profits.
GW's much hyped new paint line, is designed to help get armies painted quickly, but it is also designed to encourage you to buy new and more GW paints and to not buy "blood red" or "goblin green" from some other vendor. They took down all their old painting tutorials and invalidated a whole bunch more that were typed up by fans and posted online. Now if I wanted to tell someone how to paint a Khorne bezerker, I have no idea what GW colors to tell someone to use. I have yet to try the new GW paints and I use whatever paints work best or look the most like how I envisioned the model should look. I now try to paint more efficiently, not necessarily better. If that means with Reaper Master Series Clotted Red rather than having to mix up some custom red suing GW's paints, I'm going to use Reaper Master Series Clotted Red. That was one of the key colors in my red armor I believe. I also used the Foundry Black Triad as the beginnings of my black highlights which seemed to annoy every single person I told as those paints are hard to find in Canada, they seemed to want some sort of secret wash recipe, not be told that I used 3 or 5 different greys carefully layered to achieve the final effect.
The other reason the new paints have upset some veteran players is they already have 1000s of points of whatever army painted. They have a recipe or color list they use to paint their new additions, now they have to learn some new colors, maybe new techniques, and may have to blend or something to match their previous squad/army members. I've been painting a long time, so I've gone through this before, (GW changing their paint line) plus I mainly paint Nurgle so if my greens don't perfectly match c'est la vie.
It all comes back to why you paint. If you paint only because you are forced to by a store or tournament organizer, you look at it differently than if you paint because you want your models to actually look good or to try and improve your personal skill level. There are a lot of resources online but some folks in the hobby are just lazy, they can't even be bothered to Google or search old threads and repeatedly ask the same questions or even worse they say something like "That's not how you paint Ultramarines" or "you shouldn't paint your models so bright" or whatever.
I've just gotten tired of a lot of the BS you see online in this hobby and elsewhere in life. I've gone out of my way to help a lot of people so when people go out of their way to give me grief, or personally attack me. I just can't have those people and that crap in my life anymore. It is bad for my health. I have to either move on or tell them just how little I think of them or both.
So yeah wanting to improve your painting or skill at anything should be the norm, but some people seem to enjoy ridiculing other people online who think differently from them, even in a hobby that involves painting toy soldiers.
-
Nameless
- The Better Choice
- Posts: 17415
- Joined: 21 Jun 2005, o 17:41
- Location: Silesia, Poland
- Contact:
Re: i want to become a better painter
from my gaming days I remember that majority of gamers wanted to play, not paint. painted armies were just the tool. lot of people wanted to have their army painted, though it was not a "requirement", some wanted to paint them well. different approaches were obvious. bad energy though? hostility?
has things changed that much? strange days are coming.
has things changed that much? strange days are coming.
Re: i want to become a better painter
then why don't you join our Tale of Gamers?
viewforum.php?f=68
for some of us it just a motivating kick to paint war bands/armies together.
viewforum.php?f=68
for some of us it just a motivating kick to paint war bands/armies together.
miniatures painted:
2011 - 83, 2012 - 38, 2013 - 45, 2014 - 56, 2015 - 95, 2016 - 106, 2017 - 22
2011 - 83, 2012 - 38, 2013 - 45, 2014 - 56, 2015 - 95, 2016 - 106, 2017 - 22
Re: i want to become a better painter
Wow, Muskie, you're the kind of poster we love! you have your opinions, they're interesting, and you're happy to share them. glad to have you here 
and if improving one's painting is what they like - that's great.
that's what Kylaxi wants to do, so let's give the thread back to him
I thought they blamed Canada for everything in South ParkMuskie wrote:It is nice to blame the Americans for everything
to me enjoying the hobby should be the norm, and respecting the right of others to enjoy theirs. enjoy in any way they like the best - be it painting, gaming, reading stories - as long as you don't ruin another hobbyist's fun.Muskie wrote:So yeah wanting to improve your painting or skill at anything should be the norm, but some people seem to enjoy ridiculing other people online who think differently from them, even in a hobby that involves painting toy soldiers.
and if improving one's painting is what they like - that's great.
that's what Kylaxi wants to do, so let's give the thread back to him
-- Mahoń
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector
Back in the garage with my bullshit detector